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	<title>Comments on: Where, oh where, are the orthodox economists now?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.debtonation.org/2008/09/where-oh-where-are-the-orthodox-economists-now/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.debtonation.org/2008/09/where-oh-where-are-the-orthodox-economists-now/</link>
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	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 08 Feb 2012 08:39:46 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<item>
		<title>By: Steven Shaw</title>
		<link>http://www.debtonation.org/2008/09/where-oh-where-are-the-orthodox-economists-now/comment-page-1/#comment-129</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven Shaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Sep 2008 04:29:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://debtonation.org/?p=132#comment-129</guid>
		<description>Hi. I haven&#039;t studied economics but have become interested in it over the last few years. I heard 

you on the Australian ABC Radio program yesterday.

I was wondering how you suggest that the money/credit creation be controlled. Are you 

suggesting something like sound money or hard money?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi. I haven&#8217;t studied economics but have become interested in it over the last few years. I heard </p>
<p>you on the Australian ABC Radio program yesterday.</p>
<p>I was wondering how you suggest that the money/credit creation be controlled. Are you </p>
<p>suggesting something like sound money or hard money?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ernest Werner</title>
		<link>http://www.debtonation.org/2008/09/where-oh-where-are-the-orthodox-economists-now/comment-page-1/#comment-126</link>
		<dc:creator>Ernest Werner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Sep 2008 10:02:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://debtonation.org/?p=132#comment-126</guid>
		<description>Well-done.  In America our Bush administration chucks its ideology &amp; goes &quot;pragmatic.&quot;  A government take-over that moves from 


&quot;invisibility to inevitability in the blink of an eye&quot; (Sebastian Mallaby in the Washington Post.)
Ms. Pettifor&#039;s valiant thrust against the 

reigning orthodoxy isn&#039;t likely to become popular -- not quite yet. But we may believe in her.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well-done.  In America our Bush administration chucks its ideology &amp; goes &#8220;pragmatic.&#8221;  A government take-over that moves from </p>
<p>&#8220;invisibility to inevitability in the blink of an eye&#8221; (Sebastian Mallaby in the Washington Post.)<br />
Ms. Pettifor&#8217;s valiant thrust against the </p>
<p>reigning orthodoxy isn&#8217;t likely to become popular &#8212; not quite yet. But we may believe in her.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Sheila N</title>
		<link>http://www.debtonation.org/2008/09/where-oh-where-are-the-orthodox-economists-now/comment-page-1/#comment-125</link>
		<dc:creator>Sheila N</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Sep 2008 07:18:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://debtonation.org/?p=132#comment-125</guid>
		<description>It has taken me a long time to realise that most of the people currently in government and the people they take 

advice from are too stupid for the job.  You would have to be really stupid to think that producing more money will generate more wealth forever.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It has taken me a long time to realise that most of the people currently in government and the people they take </p>
<p>advice from are too stupid for the job.  You would have to be really stupid to think that producing more money will generate more wealth forever.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Kevin Cox</title>
		<link>http://www.debtonation.org/2008/09/where-oh-where-are-the-orthodox-economists-now/comment-page-1/#comment-123</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Cox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Sep 2008 02:29:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://debtonation.org/?p=132#comment-123</guid>
		<description>An Australian &quot;Solution&quot;

How to fund investment in renewable energy and solve the debt crisis



Emissions Permits Trading, Carbon Credits, Renewable Energy Targets, Feed In Tariffs and other financial structures are all mechanisms to 

encourage investment in renewable energy infrastructure. These approaches do it by manipulating the market in fossil fuel energy to encourage 

investment in renewable energy.

That is, we encourage the market in building renewable energy infrastructure by manipulating the market in 

the output from the renewable energy infrastructure investment market. Why do we do this? We do it because the cost of producing energy from the 

sun or from hot rocks or from windmills is more expensive than from burning fossil fuels. However, the running costs of most renewable energy 

plants is less than half the cost of running any fossil fuel energy plant because there is no cost of fuel. The cost of renewable energy 

infrastructure is overwhelmingly a construction capital cost. The interest charge on money needed for investment in renewables dominates the cost 

equation.

If we had zero interest money available for investment in renewables we could have as much renewable energy as we wanted. It might 

cost a lot of money to build it but it could be done if there is enough renewable energy infrastructure opportunities available and if interest 

charges on investment money was zero.
Is there enough renewable energy available?

Australia alone has renewable energy sources either 

from the sun or from the hot underground rocks to provide the whole world&#039;s population with thousands of times their current energy consumption so 

there is enough renewable energy available.
How much will it cost?

When we double the capacity of renewable energy infrastructure the 

cost decreases by about 20%. By the time we have replaced all our energy needs with renewable energy the cost per installed megawatt will be less 

than a million dollars. If we assume an average cost of $1.6 million then we will need about $15,000 per person to meet ALL their energy needs. If 

we average this over ten years then it is 30 billion dollars per year for Australia to achieve zero emissions within ten years. At the end of this 

time the cost of producing wholesale electricity will be more than halved.
Isn&#039;t this a lot of money?

Each month Australians borrow $20 

Billion dollars to buy houses.  $30 billion in the scale of national expenditure it is not a large amount of money and is affordable.
How could 

we efficiently invest this amount of money?

We know that the most efficient way to spend money is to spend it through a market where there 

are many buyers and there are many potential sellers. We have sellers in such a market in Australia today and it is called the renewable energy and 

saving energy infrastructure market. There are many sellers of solar energy plants, solar energy photovoltaic panels, windmills, geothermal 

projects, insulating our houses, etc. The problem is that there are not enough people with enough money who want to purchase their goods.
How 

can we find the money?

In the year to July 2008 the Australian supply of money increased by $240 billion. Somehow eight times $30 billion of 

Australian dollars was created that did not previously exist. The government could suggest to the Reserve Bank to create $30 billion dollars of the 

new money we need and issue it at zero interest and require it to be spent on renewable energy infrastructure. 
But how we do it?

Each 

day the Reserve Bank creates money. If necessary it creates several billions of dollars per day. There is no reason for the Reserve Bank not to 

create $30 billion dollars of money with special conditions attached to it. That is, the Reserve Bank can create special dollars on which it 

charges no interest. Those dollars can only be spent on renewable energy infrastructure and on ways of saving energy. The Reserve Bank can 

supervise and control such an organisation and the Reserve Bank can hire private organisations to establish and run the system.
Who would get 

the money?

Who gets the money is a political decision and would be determined by the Federal Government as they are the ones who &quot;own&quot; the 

money through the Reserve Bank. It is suggested that the money be given to any resident of Australia who volunteers to take it. It could be given 

once a year in inverse proportion to the amount of mains electricity per head consumed in the previous year. It is suggested that each person on 

their birthday would get on average $1,500 in what we might call Energy Rewards. The exact amount will be calculated from the mains electricity 

consumption from their places of residence and there would be limits where the top 20% of consumers get zero and the people (including new born 

babies) who could prove they consumed no mains electricity in the previous year received $5,000. 
How would the people spend the money?



Many - possibly most people would sell the money to someone better able to invest it. Others would buy shares in investment vehicles that would 

in turn invest the money. Many would spend the money on household improvements to save energy such as better insulation. Some may spend the money 

converting their vehicles to run on renewable energy sources. The mechanism for establishing what would be eligible would be determined by the 

sellers of infrastructure who would offer goods and services and in their sales contracts would specify how the money used by them would create 

emissions free energy or would save energy. If their claims proved to be false they would be excluded from being able to accept Energy Rewards as 

payment.
Wouldn&#039;t this be inflationary?

No it would not be inflationary on the general economy because Energy Rewards attract no 

interest while they are unspent. Energy Rewards are ONLY spent on productive assets and we know that if we invest in new ways to increase our 

income then this is not inflationary. Energy Rewards while they remain Energy Rewards do not increase inflation. When they are spent they produce 

productive assets that have value and can be sold. If too many Energy Rewards were issued then Energy Rewards may become devalued but that is of no 

concern to the rest of the economy. Wholesale Electricity Energy prices are about 5 cents per kwh. The operating cost of most large scale renewable 

energy is 1 cent per kilowatt hour. Rather than being inflationary renewable energy plants will decrease prices because renewable energy will be 

cheaper than fossil fuel energy.
But wouldn&#039;t it create too much demand for Renewable Energy Infrastructure?

There are many ways to 

spend Energy Rewards and the market will determine where it is spent. It is thought that initially most money will go towards companies that have 

large plans for renewable energy plants such as solar thermal, geothermal and wind power. That is, people will buy shares in those companies and 

those companies will spend the money efficiently.
Wouldn&#039;t it require parliamentary legislation?

The Reserve Bank has power over the 

issuing of the currency and provided it works to maintain and protect the currency it could do whatever it wishes. There is no legislation 

required. The Reserve Bank may well consult with the Federal Government and if the Reserve Bank did not wish to follow this path the Federal 

Government could pass legislation to require the Bank to issue currency via Energy Rewards.
There must be something wrong with this idea 

otherwise some country would have implemented it?

This idea has probably been around for a long time in the archives of many governments or 

universities. However, until we get a crisis that demands some action then initiatives such as this tend to be forgetten because the system appears 

to be working well. The recent turmoil in the global financial markets and the worry over climate change bring attention to the way our financial 

system works and to trying to think of different ways of encouraging investment in renewable energy. It turns out that Energy Rewards will solve 

the Emissions problem while helping ease the money supply problem in non inflationary ways. If operated worldwide this approach would give a non 

inflationary method of increasing the money supply and break the current runaway increase in debt and money supply.
Wouldn&#039;t it be too 

expensive to implement and run such a system?

The other reason it has not been suggested is that until the Internet was in place it was 

impractical to implement. With today&#039;s information technologies this is a relatively simple system to implement as we have efficient ways to 

identify people and we have many electronic market places that operate with millions of buyers and sellers. The cost of running the system would be 

born by the sellers of infrastructure and they currently have much higher selling fees than the 1% or less fees required of this system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An Australian &#8220;Solution&#8221;</p>
<p>How to fund investment in renewable energy and solve the debt crisis</p>
<p>Emissions Permits Trading, Carbon Credits, Renewable Energy Targets, Feed In Tariffs and other financial structures are all mechanisms to </p>
<p>encourage investment in renewable energy infrastructure. These approaches do it by manipulating the market in fossil fuel energy to encourage </p>
<p>investment in renewable energy.</p>
<p>That is, we encourage the market in building renewable energy infrastructure by manipulating the market in </p>
<p>the output from the renewable energy infrastructure investment market. Why do we do this? We do it because the cost of producing energy from the </p>
<p>sun or from hot rocks or from windmills is more expensive than from burning fossil fuels. However, the running costs of most renewable energy </p>
<p>plants is less than half the cost of running any fossil fuel energy plant because there is no cost of fuel. The cost of renewable energy </p>
<p>infrastructure is overwhelmingly a construction capital cost. The interest charge on money needed for investment in renewables dominates the cost </p>
<p>equation.</p>
<p>If we had zero interest money available for investment in renewables we could have as much renewable energy as we wanted. It might </p>
<p>cost a lot of money to build it but it could be done if there is enough renewable energy infrastructure opportunities available and if interest </p>
<p>charges on investment money was zero.<br />
Is there enough renewable energy available?</p>
<p>Australia alone has renewable energy sources either </p>
<p>from the sun or from the hot underground rocks to provide the whole world&#8217;s population with thousands of times their current energy consumption so </p>
<p>there is enough renewable energy available.<br />
How much will it cost?</p>
<p>When we double the capacity of renewable energy infrastructure the </p>
<p>cost decreases by about 20%. By the time we have replaced all our energy needs with renewable energy the cost per installed megawatt will be less </p>
<p>than a million dollars. If we assume an average cost of $1.6 million then we will need about $15,000 per person to meet ALL their energy needs. If </p>
<p>we average this over ten years then it is 30 billion dollars per year for Australia to achieve zero emissions within ten years. At the end of this </p>
<p>time the cost of producing wholesale electricity will be more than halved.<br />
Isn&#8217;t this a lot of money?</p>
<p>Each month Australians borrow $20 </p>
<p>Billion dollars to buy houses.  $30 billion in the scale of national expenditure it is not a large amount of money and is affordable.<br />
How could </p>
<p>we efficiently invest this amount of money?</p>
<p>We know that the most efficient way to spend money is to spend it through a market where there </p>
<p>are many buyers and there are many potential sellers. We have sellers in such a market in Australia today and it is called the renewable energy and </p>
<p>saving energy infrastructure market. There are many sellers of solar energy plants, solar energy photovoltaic panels, windmills, geothermal </p>
<p>projects, insulating our houses, etc. The problem is that there are not enough people with enough money who want to purchase their goods.<br />
How </p>
<p>can we find the money?</p>
<p>In the year to July 2008 the Australian supply of money increased by $240 billion. Somehow eight times $30 billion of </p>
<p>Australian dollars was created that did not previously exist. The government could suggest to the Reserve Bank to create $30 billion dollars of the </p>
<p>new money we need and issue it at zero interest and require it to be spent on renewable energy infrastructure.<br />
But how we do it?</p>
<p>Each </p>
<p>day the Reserve Bank creates money. If necessary it creates several billions of dollars per day. There is no reason for the Reserve Bank not to </p>
<p>create $30 billion dollars of money with special conditions attached to it. That is, the Reserve Bank can create special dollars on which it </p>
<p>charges no interest. Those dollars can only be spent on renewable energy infrastructure and on ways of saving energy. The Reserve Bank can </p>
<p>supervise and control such an organisation and the Reserve Bank can hire private organisations to establish and run the system.<br />
Who would get </p>
<p>the money?</p>
<p>Who gets the money is a political decision and would be determined by the Federal Government as they are the ones who &#8220;own&#8221; the </p>
<p>money through the Reserve Bank. It is suggested that the money be given to any resident of Australia who volunteers to take it. It could be given </p>
<p>once a year in inverse proportion to the amount of mains electricity per head consumed in the previous year. It is suggested that each person on </p>
<p>their birthday would get on average $1,500 in what we might call Energy Rewards. The exact amount will be calculated from the mains electricity </p>
<p>consumption from their places of residence and there would be limits where the top 20% of consumers get zero and the people (including new born </p>
<p>babies) who could prove they consumed no mains electricity in the previous year received $5,000.<br />
How would the people spend the money?</p>
<p>Many &#8211; possibly most people would sell the money to someone better able to invest it. Others would buy shares in investment vehicles that would </p>
<p>in turn invest the money. Many would spend the money on household improvements to save energy such as better insulation. Some may spend the money </p>
<p>converting their vehicles to run on renewable energy sources. The mechanism for establishing what would be eligible would be determined by the </p>
<p>sellers of infrastructure who would offer goods and services and in their sales contracts would specify how the money used by them would create </p>
<p>emissions free energy or would save energy. If their claims proved to be false they would be excluded from being able to accept Energy Rewards as </p>
<p>payment.<br />
Wouldn&#8217;t this be inflationary?</p>
<p>No it would not be inflationary on the general economy because Energy Rewards attract no </p>
<p>interest while they are unspent. Energy Rewards are ONLY spent on productive assets and we know that if we invest in new ways to increase our </p>
<p>income then this is not inflationary. Energy Rewards while they remain Energy Rewards do not increase inflation. When they are spent they produce </p>
<p>productive assets that have value and can be sold. If too many Energy Rewards were issued then Energy Rewards may become devalued but that is of no </p>
<p>concern to the rest of the economy. Wholesale Electricity Energy prices are about 5 cents per kwh. The operating cost of most large scale renewable </p>
<p>energy is 1 cent per kilowatt hour. Rather than being inflationary renewable energy plants will decrease prices because renewable energy will be </p>
<p>cheaper than fossil fuel energy.<br />
But wouldn&#8217;t it create too much demand for Renewable Energy Infrastructure?</p>
<p>There are many ways to </p>
<p>spend Energy Rewards and the market will determine where it is spent. It is thought that initially most money will go towards companies that have </p>
<p>large plans for renewable energy plants such as solar thermal, geothermal and wind power. That is, people will buy shares in those companies and </p>
<p>those companies will spend the money efficiently.<br />
Wouldn&#8217;t it require parliamentary legislation?</p>
<p>The Reserve Bank has power over the </p>
<p>issuing of the currency and provided it works to maintain and protect the currency it could do whatever it wishes. There is no legislation </p>
<p>required. The Reserve Bank may well consult with the Federal Government and if the Reserve Bank did not wish to follow this path the Federal </p>
<p>Government could pass legislation to require the Bank to issue currency via Energy Rewards.<br />
There must be something wrong with this idea </p>
<p>otherwise some country would have implemented it?</p>
<p>This idea has probably been around for a long time in the archives of many governments or </p>
<p>universities. However, until we get a crisis that demands some action then initiatives such as this tend to be forgetten because the system appears </p>
<p>to be working well. The recent turmoil in the global financial markets and the worry over climate change bring attention to the way our financial </p>
<p>system works and to trying to think of different ways of encouraging investment in renewable energy. It turns out that Energy Rewards will solve </p>
<p>the Emissions problem while helping ease the money supply problem in non inflationary ways. If operated worldwide this approach would give a non </p>
<p>inflationary method of increasing the money supply and break the current runaway increase in debt and money supply.<br />
Wouldn&#8217;t it be too </p>
<p>expensive to implement and run such a system?</p>
<p>The other reason it has not been suggested is that until the Internet was in place it was </p>
<p>impractical to implement. With today&#8217;s information technologies this is a relatively simple system to implement as we have efficient ways to </p>
<p>identify people and we have many electronic market places that operate with millions of buyers and sellers. The cost of running the system would be </p>
<p>born by the sellers of infrastructure and they currently have much higher selling fees than the 1% or less fees required of this system.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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