system. It’s this monetary inflation that generates the price inflation that we experience at the shops (at least that’s the Austrian

explanation).

On the Bible and usury. Yes there are some verses that support the anti-usury point of view. These all refer to “brothers”. It

does not condemn “usury banking” as you put it. A point for the charging of interest is the parable of the talents.

From Wikipedia on Usury:

“Wherefore then gavest not thou my money

into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?” -Luke 19:23

“Finally the master said to him “Why then didn’t

you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?’” -Luke 19:11-19:27

Exodus

22:25 talks about not lending at interest to the poor: “If thou lend money to any of my people that is poor by thee, thou shalt not be to him as an

usurer, neither shalt thou lay upon him usury.”

Deut 23:20 mentions explicitly that you can charge interest to strangers: “Unto a stranger

thou mayest lend upon usury…”.

Deuteronomy 23:19 Thou shalt not lend upon usury to thy brother; usury of money, usury of victuals,

usury of any thing that is lent upon usury.

Leviticus 25:36-37 Take thou no usury of him, or increase; but fear thy God; that thy

brother may live with thee. Thou shalt not give him thy money upon usury, nor lend him thy victuals for increase.

When the Babylonian

civilization collapsed, three percent of the people owned all the wealth. When old Persia went down to destruction two percent of the people owned

all the wealth. When ancient Greece went down to ruin one-half of one percent of the people owned all the wealth. When the Roman empire fell by the

wayside, two thousand people owned the wealth of the civilized world…It is said at this time less than two percent (2%) of the people control

ninety percent of the wealth of America. — Lincoln Money Martyred

It is not more inflationary. It is exactly the same as the current system except there is no abnormal growth bias placed into the

economy.

When, using the example I cited above, the £1100 is fully repaid, it disappears out of the system. The money supply is not

permanently swollen, it is swollen only until the loan plus CREATED interest is repaid.

Because the interest part exists in the system, the

requirement for the system to keep issuing new loans is diminished massively.

Inflation would be less under this arrangement because there

would no longer be a requirement to keep glutting the market with new loan money.

At least we agree that inflation is evil . I don’t think that interest is evil but

I am happy to learn otherwise. I’m not a Christian either but I’ve read enough of the Bible to know that it’s not against usury.

What

great civilisations ruled against usury? Perhaps your idea of “great” isn’t mine. Did those “great” civilisations also war against their

neighbours? Burn witches? etc

I am interested in learning more about the idea of debt free money as you are espousing. In your system what

stops me from borrowing a few million (or billion), live a wonderful life and never pay any back (perhaps you can get some back from my estate).

Would you lend the same amount of money to a big stable company as to a new startup company?

It sounds like yourself and Paul have watched

the “Money as Debt” video available online. Chris Martenson’s Crash Course is also interesting.

http://www.chrismartenson.com/crashcourse

I am a sceptic of all though. We must be sceptics in order to properly analyse a new proposal and

not be led down the garden path. I particularly note that “Global Warming” is now known as “Climate Change” because the earth is cooling for the

last decade or so. So, I’m a climate change sceptic too. Unless you know for sure, you can only sit on the fence. Of course, I can support prudent

measure just in case.

For me, commodity money makes some sense and has a natural limit on monetary expansion (i.e. inflation). I haven’t

thought much about how debt and interest works in a commodity money system but I think it is ok (e.g. gold/money deposited for a long term can be

lent at interest to companies and individuals).

I’ve been thinking lately that debt is more natural than you may think. For instance, if I

ask a favour of you, I will “owe you one”. If I was to write this obligation on a piece of paper (an IOU) then I have effectively printed my own

money. Let’s say you looked after my kids while I went out for dinner. Let’s imagine I owed you the same and wrote it out as an IOU. It’s not

money in the fungible sense. However, it is money that is not subject to taxation and is not inflationary (which is just a hidden tax anyway). In

this case, it does have a limited lifetime (same as my lifetime or ability to look after kids which may be sooner).

I found online people

who have expanded this idea of an IOU system. The one I found is called LETS. I didn’t like it because it makes all hours equal (i.e. babysitting

is worth the same as legal work). Even though I don’t agree with the system in it’s current form, I will be reading more about it as it’s

worthwhile to study it.

It’s an IOU system that makes me wonder most about the need for commodity money.

If we have a free market in

money then people would be free to design their own money systems. In time the central banks may be able to be closed down (if everyone moves to

new money system). My only concern would be the chaos…

current system.

current system.

engineering. Our current system is maintained by appalling mechanics.

Say a bank lends out £1000 at 10% (to keep our figures simple). The

bank creates the £1000 out of thin air and thereby swells the money supply by £1000. But it now has a legally enforceable right to receive £1100.

The problem is this:

The £100 in interest has NOT BEEN CREATED AT THE POINT OF THE LOAN.

Where is the £100 to be found by the

borrower? It can only be found by other people taking out loans that swell the money supply with our borrower aiming to get some of that so he can

find the £100 interest.

The flaw at the heart of the banking system is therefore this:

Banks are always owed an amount of money

(capital + interest) THAT IS GREATER THAN THE ACTUAL AMOUNT OF MONEY THAT EXISTS.

The only way to deal with this, is for the system to

continually issue ever more interest bearing loans so that the liquidity is in the market to enable current loans and interest to be paid.

Think of it as a feedback loop in an audio circuit. What we have just had is a loud BANG as the circuit couldn’t hold the feedback anymore.

EXAMPLE OF HOW HONEST INTEREST WOULD WORK

When a man is loaned £1000 at 10%, the bank creates both the £1000 and the £100 interest ie

£1100 total. It pays itself £100, giving the £1000 to the borrower. The bank will in due course spend that £100 into the economy meaning that the

interest amount exists for the borrower to obtain it. The system does not have to keep generating new loans to generate the £100. The system is in

balance. The banks are now owed an amount equal to or less than the total amount of money in the system.

So no feedback. No pointless loans.

No aberrations and complications in the system.

The type of money we use, interest bearing credit, is designed to transfer all wealth into

ever fewer hands. Until we change it, we change nothing. No Govt measure will have the slightest effect unless this systemic design fault is

rectified.

I’m atheist (thank God) but I’ve heard that Jesus, bless him, turned over the tables of the money lenders. Check out

the history of usury and you’ll find that every great civilisation ruled against the charging of interest.

I agree with Ann – but I’d go

further. I’d reduce all interest rates to 1% and wouild eventually phase out debt completely. The money phased in would be zero-based – no

interest rates, no debt and no credit. Instead, productive investment through share dividend systems.

interest while the rich earn interest on their money surplus. So the debt-based money system is – by mathematical logic – amoral and unethical;

like cancer it grows exponentially, but in the real world the cancer kills the organism and the growth stops: not so with money.

Finally,

our money system – I save £1,000 at 5% for a year and “earn” £50 – is predicated on the assumption of continuous economic growth. The alternative

is inflation.

So our current money system is both inherently unstable and inflationary!