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	<title>Comments on: G8 will scupper G20 Summit</title>
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	<link>http://www.debtonation.org/2009/03/g8-will-scupper-g20-summit/</link>
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		<item>
		<title>By: Ann Pettifor</title>
		<link>http://www.debtonation.org/2009/03/g8-will-scupper-g20-summit/comment-page-1/#comment-907</link>
		<dc:creator>Ann Pettifor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Apr 2009 21:36:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://debtonation.org/?p=2169#comment-907</guid>
		<description>Andy Murray - I agree with you wholeheartedly. The reason that this G20 will fail, is that the leaders are 

trying to defend globalisation - and its indefensible. 

So there&#039;s hope yet!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andy Murray &#8211; I agree with you wholeheartedly. The reason that this G20 will fail, is that the leaders are </p>
<p>trying to defend globalisation &#8211; and its indefensible. </p>
<p>So there&#8217;s hope yet!</p>
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		<title>By: Ann Pettifor</title>
		<link>http://www.debtonation.org/2009/03/g8-will-scupper-g20-summit/comment-page-1/#comment-906</link>
		<dc:creator>Ann Pettifor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Apr 2009 21:35:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://debtonation.org/?p=2169#comment-906</guid>
		<description>Brian Smith, you&#039;re right...they cannot allow themselves to be depicted as having got it wrong...but also; they 

don&#039;t honestly believe they were wrong....they&#039;re tryiing to put humpty together again, thinking he never was fragile, it was just a very strong 

wind that blew him over! 

We know better....Which is why we have to get in there and have the argument, publicly, and put the 

alternative...so many people are awestruck by the words of &#039;oracles&#039; like Greenspan and Mervyn King...We have to encourage them - that is, our 

fellow citizens - to be a little less respectful, and a little more confident of the alternatives.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brian Smith, you&#8217;re right&#8230;they cannot allow themselves to be depicted as having got it wrong&#8230;but also; they </p>
<p>don&#8217;t honestly believe they were wrong&#8230;.they&#8217;re tryiing to put humpty together again, thinking he never was fragile, it was just a very strong </p>
<p>wind that blew him over! </p>
<p>We know better&#8230;.Which is why we have to get in there and have the argument, publicly, and put the </p>
<p>alternative&#8230;so many people are awestruck by the words of &#8216;oracles&#8217; like Greenspan and Mervyn King&#8230;We have to encourage them &#8211; that is, our </p>
<p>fellow citizens &#8211; to be a little less respectful, and a little more confident of the alternatives.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Ann Pettifor</title>
		<link>http://www.debtonation.org/2009/03/g8-will-scupper-g20-summit/comment-page-1/#comment-905</link>
		<dc:creator>Ann Pettifor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Apr 2009 21:33:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://debtonation.org/?p=2169#comment-905</guid>
		<description>Duke, thanks for the comment. You might be right...but there is no sign of King condemning the bail-out of e.g. 

Dunfermline Building Society - was it £1.6 billion dumped on us taxpayers?  

So yes, the balance is really important. Bailing out banks is 

not government spending in the productive and income generating sense that Keynes intended it....So you may be right on that one...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Duke, thanks for the comment. You might be right&#8230;but there is no sign of King condemning the bail-out of e.g. </p>
<p>Dunfermline Building Society &#8211; was it £1.6 billion dumped on us taxpayers?  </p>
<p>So yes, the balance is really important. Bailing out banks is </p>
<p>not government spending in the productive and income generating sense that Keynes intended it&#8230;.So you may be right on that one&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Brian P. Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.debtonation.org/2009/03/g8-will-scupper-g20-summit/comment-page-1/#comment-901</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian P. Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 20:26:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://debtonation.org/?p=2169#comment-901</guid>
		<description>I think that one of the problems is that none of the major players (and they really are only playing!) wants to have to admit that they 

have been following the wrong policies all these years. We all know they have got us into this mess, but they are not about to say sorry and really 

mean it, any more than the bankers who brought down Northern Rock, RBS, etc! They cannot allow themselves to be seen as wrong, and thus as unworthy 

of our respect, and the large salaries they currently receive!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that one of the problems is that none of the major players (and they really are only playing!) wants to have to admit that they </p>
<p>have been following the wrong policies all these years. We all know they have got us into this mess, but they are not about to say sorry and really </p>
<p>mean it, any more than the bankers who brought down Northern Rock, RBS, etc! They cannot allow themselves to be seen as wrong, and thus as unworthy </p>
<p>of our respect, and the large salaries they currently receive!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Pete Murphy</title>
		<link>http://www.debtonation.org/2009/03/g8-will-scupper-g20-summit/comment-page-1/#comment-898</link>
		<dc:creator>Pete Murphy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Mar 2009 01:05:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://debtonation.org/?p=2169#comment-898</guid>
		<description>Our enormous trade deficit is rightly of growing concern to Americans. Since 

leading the global drive toward trade liberalization by signing the Global Agreement on Tariffs and Trade in 1947, America has been transformed 

from the wealthiest nation on earth - its preeminent industrial power - into a skid row bum, literally begging the rest of the world for cash to 

keep us afloat. It&#039;s a disgusting spectacle. Our cumulative trade deficit since 1976, financed by a sell-off of American assets, exceeds $9.1 

trillion. What will happen when those assets are depleted? Today&#039;s recession is the answer. 

Why? The American work force is the most 

productive on earth. Our product quality, though it may have fallen short at one time, is now on a par with the Japanese. Our workers have labored 

tirelessly to improve our competitiveness. Yet our deficit continues to grow. Our median wages and net worth have declined for decades. Our debt 

has soared. 

Clearly, there is something amiss with &quot;free trade.&quot; The concept of free trade is rooted in Ricardo&#039;s principle of comparative 

advantage. In 1817 Ricardo hypothesized that every nation benefits when it trades what it makes best for products made best by other nations. On 

the surface, it seems to make sense. But is it possible that this theory is flawed in some way? Is there something that Ricardo didn&#039;t consider?



At this point, I should introduce myself. I am author of a book titled &quot;Five Short Blasts: A New Economic Theory Exposes The Fatal Flaw in 

Globalization and Its Consequences for America.&quot; My theory is that, as population density rises beyond some optimum level, per capita consumption 

begins to decline. This occurs because, as people are forced to crowd together and conserve space, it becomes ever more impractical to own many 

products. Falling per capita consumption, in the face of rising productivity (per capita output, which always rises), inevitably yields rising 

unemployment and poverty.

This theory has huge ramifications for U.S. policy toward population management (especially immigration policy) 

and trade. The implications for population policy may be obvious, but why trade? It&#039;s because these effects of an excessive population density - 

rising unemployment and poverty - are actually imported when we attempt to engage in free trade in manufactured goods with a nation that is much 

more densely populated. Our economies combine. The work of manufacturing is spread evenly across the combined labor force. But, while the more 

densely populated nation gets free access to a healthy market, all we get in return is access to a market emaciated by over-crowding and low per 

capita consumption. The result is an automatic, irreversible trade deficit and loss of jobs, tantamount to economic suicide. 

One need look 

no further than the U.S.&#039;s trade data for proof of this effect. Using 2006 data, an in-depth analysis reveals that, of our top twenty per capita 

trade deficits in manufactured goods (the trade deficit divided by the population of the country in question), eighteen are with nations much more 

densely populated than our own. Even more revealing, if the nations of the world are divided equally around the median population density, the U.S. 

had a trade surplus in manufactured goods of $17 billion with the half of nations below the median population density. With the half above the 

median, we had a $480 billion deficit!

Our trade deficit with China is getting all of the attention these days. But, when expressed in per 

capita terms, our deficit with China in manufactured goods is rather unremarkable - nineteenth on the list. Our per capita deficit with other 

nations such as Japan, Germany, Mexico, Korea and others (all much more densely populated than the U.S.) is worse. My point is not that our deficit 

with China isn&#039;t a problem, but rather that it&#039;s exactly what we should have expected when we suddenly applied a trade policy that was a proven 

failure around the world to a country with one fifth of the world&#039;s population. 

Ricardo&#039;s principle of comparative advantage is overly 

simplistic and flawed because it does not take into consideration this population density effect and what happens when two nations grossly 

disparate in population density attempt to trade freely in manufactured goods. While free trade in natural resources and free trade in manufactured 

goods between nations of roughly equal population density is indeed beneficial, just as Ricardo predicts, it’s a sure-fire loser when attempting to 

trade freely in manufactured goods with a nation with an excessive population density. 

If you‘re interested in learning more about this 

important new economic theory, then I invite you to visit either of my web sites at OpenWindowPublishingCo.com or PeteMurphy.wordpress.com where 

you can read the preface, join in the blog discussion and, of course, buy the book if you like. (It&#039;s also available at Amazon.com.)

Pete 

Murphy
Author, &quot;Five Short Blasts&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Our enormous trade deficit is rightly of growing concern to Americans. Since </p>
<p>leading the global drive toward trade liberalization by signing the Global Agreement on Tariffs and Trade in 1947, America has been transformed </p>
<p>from the wealthiest nation on earth &#8211; its preeminent industrial power &#8211; into a skid row bum, literally begging the rest of the world for cash to </p>
<p>keep us afloat. It&#8217;s a disgusting spectacle. Our cumulative trade deficit since 1976, financed by a sell-off of American assets, exceeds $9.1 </p>
<p>trillion. What will happen when those assets are depleted? Today&#8217;s recession is the answer. </p>
<p>Why? The American work force is the most </p>
<p>productive on earth. Our product quality, though it may have fallen short at one time, is now on a par with the Japanese. Our workers have labored </p>
<p>tirelessly to improve our competitiveness. Yet our deficit continues to grow. Our median wages and net worth have declined for decades. Our debt </p>
<p>has soared. </p>
<p>Clearly, there is something amiss with &#8220;free trade.&#8221; The concept of free trade is rooted in Ricardo&#8217;s principle of comparative </p>
<p>advantage. In 1817 Ricardo hypothesized that every nation benefits when it trades what it makes best for products made best by other nations. On </p>
<p>the surface, it seems to make sense. But is it possible that this theory is flawed in some way? Is there something that Ricardo didn&#8217;t consider?</p>
<p>At this point, I should introduce myself. I am author of a book titled &#8220;Five Short Blasts: A New Economic Theory Exposes The Fatal Flaw in </p>
<p>Globalization and Its Consequences for America.&#8221; My theory is that, as population density rises beyond some optimum level, per capita consumption </p>
<p>begins to decline. This occurs because, as people are forced to crowd together and conserve space, it becomes ever more impractical to own many </p>
<p>products. Falling per capita consumption, in the face of rising productivity (per capita output, which always rises), inevitably yields rising </p>
<p>unemployment and poverty.</p>
<p>This theory has huge ramifications for U.S. policy toward population management (especially immigration policy) </p>
<p>and trade. The implications for population policy may be obvious, but why trade? It&#8217;s because these effects of an excessive population density &#8211; </p>
<p>rising unemployment and poverty &#8211; are actually imported when we attempt to engage in free trade in manufactured goods with a nation that is much </p>
<p>more densely populated. Our economies combine. The work of manufacturing is spread evenly across the combined labor force. But, while the more </p>
<p>densely populated nation gets free access to a healthy market, all we get in return is access to a market emaciated by over-crowding and low per </p>
<p>capita consumption. The result is an automatic, irreversible trade deficit and loss of jobs, tantamount to economic suicide. </p>
<p>One need look </p>
<p>no further than the U.S.&#8217;s trade data for proof of this effect. Using 2006 data, an in-depth analysis reveals that, of our top twenty per capita </p>
<p>trade deficits in manufactured goods (the trade deficit divided by the population of the country in question), eighteen are with nations much more </p>
<p>densely populated than our own. Even more revealing, if the nations of the world are divided equally around the median population density, the U.S. </p>
<p>had a trade surplus in manufactured goods of $17 billion with the half of nations below the median population density. With the half above the </p>
<p>median, we had a $480 billion deficit!</p>
<p>Our trade deficit with China is getting all of the attention these days. But, when expressed in per </p>
<p>capita terms, our deficit with China in manufactured goods is rather unremarkable &#8211; nineteenth on the list. Our per capita deficit with other </p>
<p>nations such as Japan, Germany, Mexico, Korea and others (all much more densely populated than the U.S.) is worse. My point is not that our deficit </p>
<p>with China isn&#8217;t a problem, but rather that it&#8217;s exactly what we should have expected when we suddenly applied a trade policy that was a proven </p>
<p>failure around the world to a country with one fifth of the world&#8217;s population. </p>
<p>Ricardo&#8217;s principle of comparative advantage is overly </p>
<p>simplistic and flawed because it does not take into consideration this population density effect and what happens when two nations grossly </p>
<p>disparate in population density attempt to trade freely in manufactured goods. While free trade in natural resources and free trade in manufactured </p>
<p>goods between nations of roughly equal population density is indeed beneficial, just as Ricardo predicts, it’s a sure-fire loser when attempting to </p>
<p>trade freely in manufactured goods with a nation with an excessive population density. </p>
<p>If you‘re interested in learning more about this </p>
<p>important new economic theory, then I invite you to visit either of my web sites at OpenWindowPublishingCo.com or PeteMurphy.wordpress.com where </p>
<p>you can read the preface, join in the blog discussion and, of course, buy the book if you like. (It&#8217;s also available at Amazon.com.)</p>
<p>Pete </p>
<p>Murphy<br />
Author, &#8220;Five Short Blasts&#8221;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Andy Murray</title>
		<link>http://www.debtonation.org/2009/03/g8-will-scupper-g20-summit/comment-page-1/#comment-897</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy Murray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Mar 2009 23:21:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://debtonation.org/?p=2169#comment-897</guid>
		<description>They don&#039;t want to save the economies of nation states - they want to bankrupt them and make them 

easy prey to global capital.  This is all about saving the globalization agenda - nothing else.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They don&#8217;t want to save the economies of nation states &#8211; they want to bankrupt them and make them </p>
<p>easy prey to global capital.  This is all about saving the globalization agenda &#8211; nothing else.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: the.Duke.of.URL</title>
		<link>http://www.debtonation.org/2009/03/g8-will-scupper-g20-summit/comment-page-1/#comment-894</link>
		<dc:creator>the.Duke.of.URL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Mar 2009 13:14:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://debtonation.org/?p=2169#comment-894</guid>
		<description>As a revision, I may be being too kind to King, as he has said nothing very much about what the Bank could do to tackle unemployment, 

the current figures being almost half a million a month and rising, to me a very scary prospect. 

I am concerned about the lack of general 

cohesion among the various protest groups, though some have gotten together, and the seemingly testosterone-fueled attitude of the police - who 

appear to be looking for a fight. Given the likely dismal prospects of any significant inroads into many of the problems facing the world today 

being made by the G20, and the go-ahead given to the police by the government to rely on terrorist legislation procedures even on peaceful 

protesters make the summit look like a disaster even before it has begun.  And Boris Johnson flippantly referring to the summit as a Jamboree does 

nothing to defuse tensions surrounding the event.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a revision, I may be being too kind to King, as he has said nothing very much about what the Bank could do to tackle unemployment, </p>
<p>the current figures being almost half a million a month and rising, to me a very scary prospect. </p>
<p>I am concerned about the lack of general </p>
<p>cohesion among the various protest groups, though some have gotten together, and the seemingly testosterone-fueled attitude of the police &#8211; who </p>
<p>appear to be looking for a fight. Given the likely dismal prospects of any significant inroads into many of the problems facing the world today </p>
<p>being made by the G20, and the go-ahead given to the police by the government to rely on terrorist legislation procedures even on peaceful </p>
<p>protesters make the summit look like a disaster even before it has begun.  And Boris Johnson flippantly referring to the summit as a Jamboree does </p>
<p>nothing to defuse tensions surrounding the event.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: the.Duke.of.URL</title>
		<link>http://www.debtonation.org/2009/03/g8-will-scupper-g20-summit/comment-page-1/#comment-893</link>
		<dc:creator>the.Duke.of.URL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Mar 2009 09:27:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://debtonation.org/?p=2169#comment-893</guid>
		<description>Good post.

While agreeing with you in general about King’s indecisiveness, is it not possible that King’s recent public 

statement about there being no more money in the kitty is the stark statement it is because Brown is deaf to anything else, so committed is he to 

supporting the banks and related institutions – that is, he listens but does not hear.

What I mean to suggest is that King may be coming to 

see that putting more money into insolvent banks would be like putting money into a black hole from which no return is possible.  According to 

physics, a black hole emits a little radiation, but it doesn’t go very far and it is toxic.  Ditto the toxic bank. 

Of course, King may be 

unable to imagine putting money directly into works projects like Roosevelt’s WPA, even though such projects will bring tax revenue in their train, 

as you have argued before. Roosevelt’s projects were less successful than they might have been for many reasons, some of which are in the air 

around us today.  The rich fought Roosevelt every step of the way, even to the extent of trying to organize a military putsch, which failed in the 

end because of the democratic ideals of Brigadier General Smedley Butler whom they believed they could suborn to their ends.


As an 

aside, Blanchflower being the only member of the MPC to advocate lowered interest rates when they might have done some good:  does anyone know why 

he is being replaced at the MPC?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good post.</p>
<p>While agreeing with you in general about King’s indecisiveness, is it not possible that King’s recent public </p>
<p>statement about there being no more money in the kitty is the stark statement it is because Brown is deaf to anything else, so committed is he to </p>
<p>supporting the banks and related institutions – that is, he listens but does not hear.</p>
<p>What I mean to suggest is that King may be coming to </p>
<p>see that putting more money into insolvent banks would be like putting money into a black hole from which no return is possible.  According to </p>
<p>physics, a black hole emits a little radiation, but it doesn’t go very far and it is toxic.  Ditto the toxic bank. </p>
<p>Of course, King may be </p>
<p>unable to imagine putting money directly into works projects like Roosevelt’s WPA, even though such projects will bring tax revenue in their train, </p>
<p>as you have argued before. Roosevelt’s projects were less successful than they might have been for many reasons, some of which are in the air </p>
<p>around us today.  The rich fought Roosevelt every step of the way, even to the extent of trying to organize a military putsch, which failed in the </p>
<p>end because of the democratic ideals of Brigadier General Smedley Butler whom they believed they could suborn to their ends.</p>
<p>As an </p>
<p>aside, Blanchflower being the only member of the MPC to advocate lowered interest rates when they might have done some good:  does anyone know why </p>
<p>he is being replaced at the MPC?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: john fletcher</title>
		<link>http://www.debtonation.org/2009/03/g8-will-scupper-g20-summit/comment-page-1/#comment-891</link>
		<dc:creator>john fletcher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Mar 2009 07:30:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://debtonation.org/?p=2169#comment-891</guid>
		<description>The Quiet Coup

The crash has laid bare many unpleasant truths about the United States. One of the most alarming, says a former 

chief economist of the International Monetary Fund, is that the finance industry has effectively captured our government—a state of affairs that 

more typically describes emerging markets, and is at the center of many emerging-market crises. If the IMF’s staff could speak freely about the 

U.S., it would tell us what it tells all countries in this situation: recovery will fail unless we break the financial oligarchy that is blocking 

essential reform. And if we are to prevent a true depression, we’re running out of time. 

by Simon Johnson 



http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200905/imf-advice</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Quiet Coup</p>
<p>The crash has laid bare many unpleasant truths about the United States. One of the most alarming, says a former </p>
<p>chief economist of the International Monetary Fund, is that the finance industry has effectively captured our government—a state of affairs that </p>
<p>more typically describes emerging markets, and is at the center of many emerging-market crises. If the IMF’s staff could speak freely about the </p>
<p>U.S., it would tell us what it tells all countries in this situation: recovery will fail unless we break the financial oligarchy that is blocking </p>
<p>essential reform. And if we are to prevent a true depression, we’re running out of time. </p>
<p>by Simon Johnson </p>
<p><a href="http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200905/imf-advice" rel="nofollow" onclick="pageTracker._trackPageview('/outgoing/www.theatlantic.com/doc/200905/imf-advice?referer=');">http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200905/imf-advice</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: ann</title>
		<link>http://www.debtonation.org/2009/03/g8-will-scupper-g20-summit/comment-page-1/#comment-889</link>
		<dc:creator>ann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Mar 2009 19:54:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://debtonation.org/?p=2169#comment-889</guid>
		<description>A E Pfeiffer..the point I am making is that governments cannot be passive in the face of this  crisis...they have to do 

something to get economic activity going..economic activity rather than economic growth....Work is fundamental to our social cohesion, and there is 

plenty of work to be done..insulating our homes; renewable energies; caring for our elderly...but of course it has to be productive work within the 

finite limits of the ecosystem...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A E Pfeiffer..the point I am making is that governments cannot be passive in the face of this  crisis&#8230;they have to do </p>
<p>something to get economic activity going..economic activity rather than economic growth&#8230;.Work is fundamental to our social cohesion, and there is </p>
<p>plenty of work to be done..insulating our homes; renewable energies; caring for our elderly&#8230;but of course it has to be productive work within the </p>
<p>finite limits of the ecosystem&#8230;</p>
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