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	<title>Comments on: Ignorance of money helps bankers and politicians escape</title>
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	<link>http://www.debtonation.org/2009/07/ignorance-of-money-helps-bankers-and-politicians-escape/</link>
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		<title>By: Anne Pettifor&#8217;s Brilliance &#171; studious silliness..</title>
		<link>http://www.debtonation.org/2009/07/ignorance-of-money-helps-bankers-and-politicians-escape/comment-page-1/#comment-1144</link>
		<dc:creator>Anne Pettifor&#8217;s Brilliance &#171; studious silliness..</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 09:52:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://debtonation.org/?p=2512#comment-1144</guid>
		<description>[...] Well, I 

despair.&#8221; ~ &#8220;ignorance of money helps bankers and politicians escape&#8220; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Well, I </p>
<p>despair.&#8221; ~ &#8220;ignorance of money helps bankers and politicians escape&#8220; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Cook</title>
		<link>http://www.debtonation.org/2009/07/ignorance-of-money-helps-bankers-and-politicians-escape/comment-page-1/#comment-1134</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Cook</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 15:11:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://debtonation.org/?p=2512#comment-1134</guid>
		<description>I agree totally that there is a general misunderstanding about the nature of money.

I take 

the view that the pervasive spread of the direct instantaneous connections of the Internet is leading to the emergence of new tools, and a 

transition away from transactions to service provision.

http://www.policyinnovations.org/ideas/innovations/data/000085

Peer to Peer 

(P2P) architecture has the potential to enable the organic creation of a networked International Clearing Union, from the ground up. 

The 

difference from Keynes&#039; ICU vision of a Bancor unit issued by a global institution (from which God preserve us) is that there would be no 

centralised issuer as a monolithic middleman and single point of failure.

Instead we would see a networked model based on the sort of credit 

clearing architecture exemplified by the Swiss WIR, where goods and services change hands not FOR &quot;fiat&quot; Swiss Francs, but essentially BY REFERENCE 

TO Swiss Francs as a unit of measure or Value Standard.

Wherever a barter accounting system incorporates credit, or &quot;time to pay&quot; the 

outcome IS a monetary system.

The new P2P finance solutions I have been working on - lately with considerable success - were presented 

here:

http://www.slideshare.net/ChrisJCook/equity-shares-a-solution-to-the-credit-crash-presentation

in the FEASTA annual lecture 

last year, and recently in Norway at a Philosophy festival, the theme of which was Money.

http://www.slideshare.net/ChrisJCook/money-30</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree totally that there is a general misunderstanding about the nature of money.</p>
<p>I take </p>
<p>the view that the pervasive spread of the direct instantaneous connections of the Internet is leading to the emergence of new tools, and a </p>
<p>transition away from transactions to service provision.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.policyinnovations.org/ideas/innovations/data/000085" rel="nofollow" onclick="pageTracker._trackPageview('/outgoing/www.policyinnovations.org/ideas/innovations/data/000085?referer=');">http://www.policyinnovations.org/ideas/innovations/data/000085</a></p>
<p>Peer to Peer </p>
<p>(P2P) architecture has the potential to enable the organic creation of a networked International Clearing Union, from the ground up. </p>
<p>The </p>
<p>difference from Keynes&#8217; ICU vision of a Bancor unit issued by a global institution (from which God preserve us) is that there would be no </p>
<p>centralised issuer as a monolithic middleman and single point of failure.</p>
<p>Instead we would see a networked model based on the sort of credit </p>
<p>clearing architecture exemplified by the Swiss WIR, where goods and services change hands not FOR &#8220;fiat&#8221; Swiss Francs, but essentially BY REFERENCE </p>
<p>TO Swiss Francs as a unit of measure or Value Standard.</p>
<p>Wherever a barter accounting system incorporates credit, or &#8220;time to pay&#8221; the </p>
<p>outcome IS a monetary system.</p>
<p>The new P2P finance solutions I have been working on &#8211; lately with considerable success &#8211; were presented </p>
<p>here:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.slideshare.net/ChrisJCook/equity-shares-a-solution-to-the-credit-crash-presentation" rel="nofollow" onclick="pageTracker._trackPageview('/outgoing/www.slideshare.net/ChrisJCook/equity-shares-a-solution-to-the-credit-crash-presentation?referer=');">http://www.slideshare.net/ChrisJCook/equity-shares-a-solution-to-the-credit-crash-presentation</a></p>
<p>in the FEASTA annual lecture </p>
<p>last year, and recently in Norway at a Philosophy festival, the theme of which was Money.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.slideshare.net/ChrisJCook/money-30" rel="nofollow" onclick="pageTracker._trackPageview('/outgoing/www.slideshare.net/ChrisJCook/money-30?referer=');">http://www.slideshare.net/ChrisJCook/money-30</a></p>
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		<title>By: Ian B</title>
		<link>http://www.debtonation.org/2009/07/ignorance-of-money-helps-bankers-and-politicians-escape/comment-page-1/#comment-1133</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 05:58:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://debtonation.org/?p=2512#comment-1133</guid>
		<description>Ann, that all sounds terribly impressive. You seem to have not addressed a couple of issues. The first would be, if printing money is a positive 

activity, and if money is just an arbitrary construct, why ever limit its printing? Just lend money without limit. Then, print some more to pay it 

back. Simple! The whole world can be rich overnight. What&#039;s the flaw here?

Suppose you just marked up every account in the world. By a 

factor of ten, say. What would happen then?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ann, that all sounds terribly impressive. You seem to have not addressed a couple of issues. The first would be, if printing money is a positive </p>
<p>activity, and if money is just an arbitrary construct, why ever limit its printing? Just lend money without limit. Then, print some more to pay it </p>
<p>back. Simple! The whole world can be rich overnight. What&#8217;s the flaw here?</p>
<p>Suppose you just marked up every account in the world. By a </p>
<p>factor of ten, say. What would happen then?</p>
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		<title>By: Ann Pettifor</title>
		<link>http://www.debtonation.org/2009/07/ignorance-of-money-helps-bankers-and-politicians-escape/comment-page-1/#comment-1131</link>
		<dc:creator>Ann Pettifor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 11:34:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://debtonation.org/?p=2512#comment-1131</guid>
		<description>[...] On the creation of money and credit. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] On the creation of money and credit. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: ann</title>
		<link>http://www.debtonation.org/2009/07/ignorance-of-money-helps-bankers-and-politicians-escape/comment-page-1/#comment-1127</link>
		<dc:creator>ann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 21:18:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://debtonation.org/?p=2512#comment-1127</guid>
		<description>Martin, thanks for your query...My understanding is that Keynes did not argue for gold as a benchmark for all currencies - 

although this was what was finally adopted by the Bretton Woods conference. Keynes&#039;s preference was for an International Clearing Union - to act 

as an independent clearer of cheques between trading nations, and to discipline countries that built up large imbalances - whether they be deficits 

or surpluses. As I say, his ideas were overruled at BWoods.....

I am keen to revive his proposal for an International Clearing Union - as it 

would the most fair to poor countries....But out in the real world there&#039;s a lot of talk of messing about with baskets of currencies that make up 

the IMF&#039;s Special Drawing Rights...That does not to me seem to be the answer...

Ann</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Martin, thanks for your query&#8230;My understanding is that Keynes did not argue for gold as a benchmark for all currencies &#8211; </p>
<p>although this was what was finally adopted by the Bretton Woods conference. Keynes&#8217;s preference was for an International Clearing Union &#8211; to act </p>
<p>as an independent clearer of cheques between trading nations, and to discipline countries that built up large imbalances &#8211; whether they be deficits </p>
<p>or surpluses. As I say, his ideas were overruled at BWoods&#8230;..</p>
<p>I am keen to revive his proposal for an International Clearing Union &#8211; as it </p>
<p>would the most fair to poor countries&#8230;.But out in the real world there&#8217;s a lot of talk of messing about with baskets of currencies that make up </p>
<p>the IMF&#8217;s Special Drawing Rights&#8230;That does not to me seem to be the answer&#8230;</p>
<p>Ann</p>
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		<title>By: ann</title>
		<link>http://www.debtonation.org/2009/07/ignorance-of-money-helps-bankers-and-politicians-escape/comment-page-1/#comment-1126</link>
		<dc:creator>ann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 21:15:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://debtonation.org/?p=2512#comment-1126</guid>
		<description>David I share your despair.  That is why the Green New Deal Group are working on a new report to challenge the 

inevitability of AUSTERITY - the punishment of the innocents for the crimes of the rich. Cheering on Austerity - as all our political parties are 

currently doing - would be economically disastrous. - we would be cutting the legs off the economy in order to bring down the deficit!!!..so we 

need to get out there and educate people and explain: the government deficit will decline when the government generates new income. And new income 

can only be generated by creating employment. 

Gordon Brown does try to articulate this point - but he is not getting it across, and is of 

course challenged in these views by the Treasury and the Bank of England - so its a helluva fight! 

Ann</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David I share your despair.  That is why the Green New Deal Group are working on a new report to challenge the </p>
<p>inevitability of AUSTERITY &#8211; the punishment of the innocents for the crimes of the rich. Cheering on Austerity &#8211; as all our political parties are </p>
<p>currently doing &#8211; would be economically disastrous. &#8211; we would be cutting the legs off the economy in order to bring down the deficit!!!..so we </p>
<p>need to get out there and educate people and explain: the government deficit will decline when the government generates new income. And new income </p>
<p>can only be generated by creating employment. </p>
<p>Gordon Brown does try to articulate this point &#8211; but he is not getting it across, and is of </p>
<p>course challenged in these views by the Treasury and the Bank of England &#8211; so its a helluva fight! </p>
<p>Ann</p>
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		<title>By: ann</title>
		<link>http://www.debtonation.org/2009/07/ignorance-of-money-helps-bankers-and-politicians-escape/comment-page-1/#comment-1125</link>
		<dc:creator>ann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 21:09:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://debtonation.org/?p=2512#comment-1125</guid>
		<description>Andy Murray....Thanks for your comment....No, Joseph Stiglitz and others can be wrong...or at least can ignore this 

reality. It is also the case of course, that while the IMF e.g. permits rich countries like the US to create money out of thin air (Queasing as my 

friend Colin Hines calls it), they frown on this being done by poor countries...But to get back to your point: More than fifty years ago, the 

economist Joseph Schumpeter noted that 
“it proved extraordinarily difficult for economists to recognise that bank loans and bank investments do 

create deposits…An even in 1930, when the large majority had been converted and accepted the doctrine as a matter of course, Keynes rightly felt it 

necessary to re-expound and to defend the doctrine at some length...and some of the most important aspects cannot be said to be fully understood 

even now. “ History of Economic Analysis page 1114. (Allen and Unwin). 

Things have not changed much since then. Economists still have a 

blind spot for money/finance/credit and the role that credit plays in creating deposits...and I sometimes think this ignorance suits the finance 

sector, so may they be behind the determination to keep the process mysterious - and beyond the curricula of economics departments? 

Ann</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andy Murray&#8230;.Thanks for your comment&#8230;.No, Joseph Stiglitz and others can be wrong&#8230;or at least can ignore this </p>
<p>reality. It is also the case of course, that while the IMF e.g. permits rich countries like the US to create money out of thin air (Queasing as my </p>
<p>friend Colin Hines calls it), they frown on this being done by poor countries&#8230;But to get back to your point: More than fifty years ago, the </p>
<p>economist Joseph Schumpeter noted that<br />
“it proved extraordinarily difficult for economists to recognise that bank loans and bank investments do </p>
<p>create deposits…An even in 1930, when the large majority had been converted and accepted the doctrine as a matter of course, Keynes rightly felt it </p>
<p>necessary to re-expound and to defend the doctrine at some length&#8230;and some of the most important aspects cannot be said to be fully understood </p>
<p>even now. “ History of Economic Analysis page 1114. (Allen and Unwin). </p>
<p>Things have not changed much since then. Economists still have a </p>
<p>blind spot for money/finance/credit and the role that credit plays in creating deposits&#8230;and I sometimes think this ignorance suits the finance </p>
<p>sector, so may they be behind the determination to keep the process mysterious &#8211; and beyond the curricula of economics departments? </p>
<p>Ann</p>
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		<title>By: Ignorance of money helps bankers and politicians escape &#124; called2account</title>
		<link>http://www.debtonation.org/2009/07/ignorance-of-money-helps-bankers-and-politicians-escape/comment-page-1/#comment-1122</link>
		<dc:creator>Ignorance of money helps bankers and politicians escape &#124; called2account</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 15:00:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://debtonation.org/?p=2512#comment-1122</guid>
		<description>[...] Debtonation » Blog Archive » Ignorance 

of money helps bankers and politicians escape. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Debtonation » Blog Archive » Ignorance </p>
<p>of money helps bankers and politicians escape. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tax Research UK &#187; Ignorance of money helps bankers and politicians escape</title>
		<link>http://www.debtonation.org/2009/07/ignorance-of-money-helps-bankers-and-politicians-escape/comment-page-1/#comment-1121</link>
		<dc:creator>Tax Research UK &#187; Ignorance of money helps bankers and politicians escape</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 13:40:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://debtonation.org/?p=2512#comment-1121</guid>
		<description>[...] Debtonation » Blog Archive » Ignorance of money helps bankers and politicians escape. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Debtonation » Blog Archive » Ignorance of money helps bankers and politicians escape. [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Ron bishop</title>
		<link>http://www.debtonation.org/2009/07/ignorance-of-money-helps-bankers-and-politicians-escape/comment-page-1/#comment-1120</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron bishop</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 21:51:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://debtonation.org/?p=2512#comment-1120</guid>
		<description>Thank you Ann-as I recall, at Bretton Woods Keynes argued for a gold standard that was the benchmark by which all currencies would be 

measured. US President Nixon ditched this for the US dollar when oil prices and the vietnam war got too costly. Given that the greenback has become 

the de facto gold standard wouldn&#039;t it be better for us all to return to Keyne&#039;s original idea? Money is a powerful psychological concept-you 

need to highlight this and its relativities by the lifeboat analogy- amongst the survivors one man has a bag of oranges, the other gold-who is the 

wealthy one? who is better off?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you Ann-as I recall, at Bretton Woods Keynes argued for a gold standard that was the benchmark by which all currencies would be </p>
<p>measured. US President Nixon ditched this for the US dollar when oil prices and the vietnam war got too costly. Given that the greenback has become </p>
<p>the de facto gold standard wouldn&#8217;t it be better for us all to return to Keyne&#8217;s original idea? Money is a powerful psychological concept-you </p>
<p>need to highlight this and its relativities by the lifeboat analogy- amongst the survivors one man has a bag of oranges, the other gold-who is the </p>
<p>wealthy one? who is better off?</p>
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